The Sun's Shadow

Stumbling to find a light switch in the dark

Ray Comfort’s Atheist Starter Kit

Over at RayComfort Blog Ignorance Central he has what he calls the Atheist Starter Kit. It is a collection of his ten recommendations for a novice atheist in how to argue with theist…. it’s amusing because it demonstrates that lack of depth with which he proclaims to understand atheists. I wanted to take the time and generally mock these 10 absurd points.

1. Whenever you are presented with credible evidence for God’s existence, call it a “straw man argument,” or “circular reasoning.” If something is quoted from somewhere, label it “quote mining.”

Here the presumption is that you will be presented with “credible” evidence, meaning that the evidence is so compelling that it is to be believed. So Ray has evidence for Proof of God(s) and I assume that he means Jesus is God since he is Christian and not the vague undefined God that is out there…The problem is it is highly doubtful he will present credible evidence and it is more likely that it will be flawed for any number of reason including but not limited to the one he listed above. I would love credible evidence for God(s). Please Provide it!!!!!

2. When a Christian says that creation proves that there is a Creator, dismiss such common sense by saying “That’s just the old watchmaker argument.”

What about when a Muslims, Hindus, or Wiccans say it? Would this be just as much evidence for their God/Goddess? Is he making an argument for Jesus or Just a vague undefined supernatural God? Why should we accept a creator as a default position, cannot the answer be the only intellectually honest one which is we do not know at this time how the creation (universe) was created?

3. When you hear that you have everything to gain and nothing to lose (the pleasures of Heaven, and the endurance of Hell) by obeying the Gospel, say “That’s just the old ‘Pascal wager.'”

It is Pascal’s Wager! Again this argument can come from any religion so what makes your religion more correct than any other religion, they all proclaim the exclusive way through their religious text either sent directly from God(s) or divinely inspired.. Consider there are 6 billion people on the planet only 2 billion are christian that means 4 billion people are not choosing Christianity. That ‘s a lot of people just left to suffer in hell and not because they were bad or evil people but they just didn’t back your God(s)…

4. You can also deal with the “whoever looks on a woman to lust for her, has committed adultery with her already in his heart,” by saying that there is no evidence that Jesus existed. None.

Is that Jesus never existed the best argument here, how about the Freedom argument. Freedom to think and have any thought I want or can come up with. Freedom from the thought control of your book. This seems more about creating a sense of Guilt in believers, I’ll stick with freedom.

5. Believe that the Bible is full of mistakes, and actually says things like the world is flat. Do not read it for yourself. That is a big mistake. Instead, read, believe, and imitate Richard Dawkins. Learn and practice the use of big words. “Megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully” is a good phrase to learn.

This one I agree with READ the BIBLE, and you will find many mistakes and contradictions. In fact many atheists have read the bible and other religious texts… actually read it cover to cover and see if it all really does make sense. See the violence, genocide, destruction, the wrath, famine and plagues… read how if you don’t believe this forever you will be damned… and then try and reconcile that with love and tolerance it preaches on the other hand. Also read the Koran, and the book of Mormon, Hindu Purana’s… I am willing to bet Ray Comfort doesn’t want you to read those only his concept of God and religion.

6. Say that you were once a genuine Christian, and that you found it to be false. (The cool thing about being an atheist is that you can lie through your teeth, because you believe that are no moral absolutes.) Additionally, if a Christian points out that this is impossible (simply due to the very definition of Christianity as one who knows the Lord), just reply “That’s the ‘no true Scotsman fallacy.'” PLEASE NOTE: It cannot be overly emphasized how learning and using these little phrases can help you feel secure in dismissing common sense.

Unstated major premise Christian’s don’t lie. The definition of Christianity is one who knows the lord? Where does this come from certainly not Merriam Webster. He must have a different dictionary… I also like how he has conveniently done away with the need for faith, if you know something then you don’t need faith in that thing… this must go back to that credible evidence that he can present… not only can he do away with atheist and agnostics, but all other religions. He knows the lord… wait not Jesus?

7. Believe that nothing is 100% certain, except the theory of Darwinian evolution. Do not question it. Believe with all of your heart that there is credible scientific evidence for species-to-species transitional forms. When you make any argument, pat yourself on the back by concluding with “Man, are you busted!” That will make you feel good about yourself.

Ah the evolution is a religion gambit… when in fact any evolutionary biologist will tell you science is provisional on the latest data and evolution through common descent is well supported. The problem for Ray Comfort is that he cannot come up with any actual science to dispute evolution at best he can point out the holes in the information and say see it’s incomplete as if that is a criticism of of science and not its strength. There will be always missing information our knowledge will never be complete but it will be on going. Do you know what has to be believe 100% for certain with no evidence for it, if you guessed Christianity you would be correct. If you guessed any other major world religion you would also be correct.

8. Deal with the threat of eternal punishment by saying that you don’t believe in the existence of Hell. Then convince yourself that because you don’t believe in something, it therefore doesn’t exist. Don’t follow that logic onto a railway line and an oncoming train.

The difference here and it maybe a subtle one is that railway lines and trains are real. They exist and we have direct evidence for them can your provide that credible direct evidence for God and God’s other sinister creation HELL?

9. Blame Christianity for the atrocities of the Roman Catholic church–when it tortured Christians through the Spanish Inquisition, imprisoned Galileo for his beliefs, or when it murdered Moslems in the Crusades.

Wait a minute are Catholics no longer Christians? Was there a tribal council and they got voted off the island? The last time I checked Roman Catholics represent the single largest christian group both in the USA and the World, they were also founded by the apostle Peter… but they don’t really represent Christianity… Ladies and Gentlemen the Protestant Pope Ray Comfort he represents the true Christians.

10. Finally, keep in fellowship with other like-minded atheists who believe as you believe, and encourage each other in your beliefs. Build up your faith. Never doubt for a moment. Remember, the key to atheism is to be unreasonable. Fall back on that when you feel threatened. Think shallow, and keep telling yourself that you are intelligent. Remember, an atheist is someone who pretends there is no God.

Finally, keep in fellowship with other like-minded Christians who believe as you believe, and encourage each other in your beliefs. Build up your faith. Never doubt for a moment. Remember, the key to Christianity is to be unreasonable. Fall back on that when you feel threatened. Think shallow, and keep telling yourself that you are intelligent. Remember, an Christian is someone who pretends there is a God.

Which one looks like a more accurate statment?

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August 6, 2008 - Posted by | Freedom, Nonsense, Religion, Superstition | , ,

27 Comments »

  1. Do you believe that Jesus was a historical person? A myth? A good teacher? A lunatic?

    Comment by Russ | August 6, 2008 | Reply

  2. Based on the information of Jesus in the Gospels and the Gnostic Gospels if he was as portrayed I believe he was a Rabbi and philosopher.

    Comment by thethyme | August 6, 2008 | Reply

  3. Do you believe that He was a good man and a good teacher? If Jesus was a good man, why, do you suppose, was He rejected and brutally crucified?

    Comment by Russ | August 6, 2008 | Reply

  4. That becomes the problem I did not know the man… none of us did, we only know what was written about him from devoted followers and he is written to be portrayed as a good man…

    I do believe that good people can be rejected and tortured horrifically because people have the capacity to be horrifically brutal… Do you think Jesus was the only potentially good person who was rejected and then crucified by the Romans?

    Comment by thethyme | August 6, 2008 | Reply

  5. No, I do not believe that Jesus was the only person to be unjustly punished and yes, I agree, people can be brutal to others for no just cause. But why? Why are people vicious and brutal to others for no reason? I believe the reason that men do evil things is because men are evil by nature.

    This is exactly what the Bible testifies concerning man. The Bible declares that mankind is evil by nature.

    “The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? [Jer 17:9]

    And Jesus said, “”For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” [Mark 7:21-23]

    And the Bible says that this is why Jesus was crucified. Because He testifies that mankind is evil.

    The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil. [John 7:7]

    The crucifixion of Jesus is the ultimate testimony of the evil nature of mankind for mankind brutally murdered the Prince of Peace.

    But the crucifixion of Jesus Christ not only testifies of the evil nature of man, it also testifies of the love of God for it was on the cross that Jesus paid the price for our sin by dying in our place. He took the punishment that we deserve – death – so that we could be reconciled to God.

    For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. [2 Cor 5:21]

    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. [Rom 6:23]

    The Bible clearly testifies to mankind that we are evil by nature. And because man is evil by nature, mankind is condemned but the Bible also testifies that God loves us and is not willing that any should perish.

    The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. [2 Per 3:9]

    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. [John 3:16]

    Comment by Russ | August 7, 2008 | Reply

  6. Right, you believe people are evil by nature, meaning that is how we are born…

    Here’s the thing; to believe people are evil by nature it doesn’t mean you know they are… it just something you’ve choosen believe which you support through biblical quotations… but you do know yourself… so does it hold true that you know yourself to be evil, since according to your belief that people are evil by their nature?

    Comment by thethyme | August 7, 2008 | Reply

  7. Absolutely I believe that I am evil by nature. That is why I need a Savior and that is why you need a savior as well because we are all made of the same flesh and we all have the same evil desires:

    Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries… [Gal 5:19-21]

    But when a person becomes a Christian, God gives them new desires:

    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. [2 Cor 5:17]

    Jesus was not put to death against His will. He willing allowed His enemies to put Him to death for our sake – to pay the price for our sin.

    Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. [John 15:13]

    No one takes [my life] from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. [John 10:18]

    Jesus offers you this – forgiveness. He has the authority to forgive you of every single sin you have ever committed because He suffered the penalty for every single sin when He willing went to the cross in your place. He endured the wrath of His Father so that you could be forgiven.

    …if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [Rom 10:9]

    Comment by Russ | August 8, 2008 | Reply

  8. I can certainly understand why a person who knows that they are evil wants a savior and I can also understand the comfort you must feel in believing that everyone is also evil just like you.

    Comment by thethyme | August 11, 2008 | Reply

  9. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ is God’s final testimony to this world that man is evil. God sent His Son into this world and what did we do? Rejoice? Did we receive Him with joy and love? No, we crucified Him. We brutally murdered the Prince of Peace.

    And who was it that crucified Him? Was it the worst of our society that crucified Him? Was it the gang bangers and the drug dealers who crucified Jesus? No, it was the best of our society that rejected Him and brutally murdered Him. It was the religious leaders and the political leaders as well as the common people on the streets of Jerusalem who condemned Jesus to death.

    This is God’s testimony to all of mankind – that mankind hates God and is in rebellion against Him. Why else would we have murdered the Son of God if we are not in rebellion against Him?

    And, this is the purpose of the law of God as well. The Ten Commandments testify to man that he is a sinner. The Law of God testifies that mankind is evil for man willfully transgresses His commandments. Here are just a few of them:

    You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. [Ex 20:7]

    You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s. [Ex 20:17]

    And Jesus said, “… whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. [Mat 5:28]

    The Bible insists that all of mankind is guilty of transgressing the law of God and because man continually and willfully transgresses the Law of God, mankind is condemned.

    There is none righteous, no, not one; [Rom 3:10]

    … all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. [Rom 3:23]

    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. [Rom 6:23]

    But crucifixion of Jesus Christ not only testifies of man’s hatred against God, it also testifies of God’s love for man for Jesus was not taken to the cross against His will but He willing went to the cross to pay the price for the sin of man.

    But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. [Rom 5:8]

    For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [John 3:17-19]

    … you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. [John 8:32]

    Comment by Russ | August 11, 2008 | Reply

  10. So professes a self proclaimed evil man, again I can understand why you want this to be true… you’re evil(not an ad hominem) that much is all we have established here… the rest is quotations of biblical writting which is no more valid than if some one posted quotes from the Koran, or from the book of mormon or any book and asked for special pleading on behalf that its authority is somehow authentic or true. That cannot be established.

    Comment by thethyme | August 11, 2008 | Reply

  11. Just to clarify, when I say that all men are evil, it is not to say that men are not capable of any good. Men (and women for that matter) are capable of walking an old lady across the street or building a hospital for the sick or feeding the hungry. Yes, man does many “good” things.

    What I am saying is that evil is resident within the heart of all men. It is the heart of man that is, “desperately wicked”. There is within the heart of all men evil desires and these evil desires within man, when they come out, “defile” a man.

    Jesus taught on this subject when some of the proud religious leaders of His day accused Him and His disciples of not washing their hands before eating a meal. The story begins in Matthew chapter 15 at verse 1. Here is part of what Jesus taught:

    So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding? Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.” [Matt 15:16-20]

    Comment by Russ | August 11, 2008 | Reply

  12. How about you? Are you evil? That is not to say that you are not capable of any good, but, do you find yourself doing things that you are ashamed of? Would you want your darkest secrets displayed on a large screen for the entire world to see?

    For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, nor hidden that will not be known. Therefore whatever you have spoken in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have spoken in the ear in inner rooms will be proclaimed on the housetops. And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! [Luke 12 1:5]

    Comment by Russ | August 11, 2008 | Reply

  13. That’s certainly fair to ask, do I consider myself evil? No, I fortunately I do not have dark secrets(I am not clear on the concept). I am not ashamed of the actions I have taken I tend to be thoughtful, but nor do I view myself as 100% the definition of good. I have certainly hurt peoples feelings and been generally mean at times, but if I were to take a list of the good I have done vs. evil I am confident the good would easily out number the “evil” not only in number but in weight of deeds.

    This also goes to how we define what evil is…morally reprehensible, wicked arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct? That’s a dictionary definition….

    I find that doing evil things including the ones you listed above as undeirable and out of character for myself.

    I agree that people can do good, but I do not agree that it is our nature to be evil or good… I agree that we are capbale of doing evil things in so much as we are just as able to do goos thing, however in either it case just because we are capable of doing good or evil it does not follow that we will do those things.

    I have also found the most people do not self identify as evil, I found your candor most refreshing. People typicaly have reasons for what they do and in my experience view themselves as good.

    Comment by thethyme | August 11, 2008 | Reply

  14. Of course when we talk about evil and good, we are speaking in relative terms. For example, if my definition of evil is someone like Ted Bundy then I would not consider myself evil at all. In order to determine if all of mankind is evil (sinful), we would first need to establish a standard of good and evil.

    For the LORD does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart. [1 Sam 16:7]

    Man judges his fellow man by his ACTIONS but God judges man by man’s thoughts and motives.

    You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. [Dut 6:5]

    Now by this standard, all of mankind has sinned against God for no one in history, except Jesus, has ever kept this commandment from his youth.

    And we have not even considered the Ten Commandments yet – and the commandments themselves were not given to merely govern man’s ACTIONS but, again, the commandments were given to govern the thoughts and intents of man’s heart.

    Jesus said, “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

    This is the standard that God will accept – no less – a perfectly pure heart in every thought and every action toward God and man. By this standard all of mankind is guilty and sinful and evil before a holy God.

    You may complain that this standard is too high – that none can attain it. Why would God require such a high standard that none can attain to?

    The reason that God requires such a high standard is because God is HOLY. This is who HE is – He is HOLY and completely without sin.

    For I am the LORD who brings you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy. [Lev 11:45]

    Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory [Is 6:3]

    This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. [1 John 1:5]

    This is the standard that God will accept – a perfect heart in every thought toward God and man.

    If most of mankind is good and not evil, why didn’t the vast majority of good people prevent the crucifixion of the most perfect man who ever lived?

    If the vast majority of men are good, why are there wars? Why don’t the vast majority of good men put an end to the violence?

    If the vast majority of men are good, why is there poverty and starvation even in our modern day? Why don’t the vast majority of good people put an end to injustice?

    The reason that we have wars and starvation and injustice – the reason that Jesus was rejected and brutally murdered is because is all of mankind is sinful – all of mankind is evil and without a Savior, all of mankind will perish before a HOLY God.

    for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. [Rom 3:23]

    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. [Rom 6:23]

    Comment by Russ | August 12, 2008 | Reply

  15. It is to control your thoughts? Just think about that…thought control is nothing I want a part of. Again the quotes of scripture support your belief but offer no independent support or indeed any reason to accept it as valid on its own or more than any other religions claim to its authority.

    My interest here has been your view of yourself as evil person… which you have said to know yourself to be. It is something you can directly speak too, if you want to split hairs over the level of evil you are, I would still find it interesting that you self describe yourself as evil, it also then makes sense from that self view as to why belief in a religious system based on salvation would be appealing to you. However appeal aside it does not make Christianity any more valid than any other religion. Which are just as Christianity is hampered by their own logical fallacies

    To the other point I see the world getting better, our view of morality has improved down the centuries. More people are free now than have ever been, we generate more food than ever before, we work to give vaccination and medicine to the poor of the world, and help them with technology to improve water supplies and access to education, however for better or worse we are not communist we are not all the same and it is unfair, but it is getting better and opportunity is continually be made available to make it so. The greatest amount of money spent on the poor does not come from any Christian or religious organization, even the Catholic Church is out done by the expenditures of our government and many other governments on social welfare, food, medicine, and clothing to third world countries and to their own people.

    Why are their wars, because there always have been wars nice circular logic huh? People have always wanted more and impose their will on to other people through force. All of government is about force, if you don’t pay your taxes eventually some one who represents the government with a gun will come to your home. There are wars fought for religion, over the same religion, for land, for minerals, for anything we can disagree about there has likely been bloodshed. The bible itself is full of the Israelites conquering the people of Canaan at God’s Command, clearly the God of the bible advocates war for his purpose of gaining land for his people.

    People did not try to stop the crucifixion because who could have done that… the Romans we’re an occupying power which suppressed the entire region, and crucifixion was a common form of execution designed to instill fear in the public at large. The Pharisees we’re also telling the public this man is dangerous to them, so who would have stood up. when the Israelites did final rise up against Roman rule, they we’re harshly put down for rebellion and the temple at Jerusalem was destroyed.

    All of that said, I am still interested in how you have known yourself to be evil, did you know before you became a Christian or afterwards have you always considered your self to be this way? If you were not a Christian would you not be able to keep those evil desires in check?

    Comment by thethyme | August 12, 2008 | Reply

  16. I am amazed that while Jesus claims that He can give you eternal life (think of that) as opposed to eternal death (think of that), you want to talk about me.

    Is I stated, evil is relative and I believe that all people are evil when placed on God’s scale of good and evil.

    No, I did not consider myself as a sinner before I became a Christian. However, when I understood that Jesus took the penalty for my sin upon Himself and suffered in my place on the cross, I became aware of the magnitude of my sin against a holy God.

    As I have said before, the crucifixion of Jesus testifies of man’s hatred and rejection of God as well as testifying of God’s love for you.

    For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. [1 Cor 1:18]

    Comment by Russ | August 12, 2008 | Reply

  17. What I am amazed at is that you accept claims made around Jesus as any more valid than…

    Hinduism Claim – Of reincarnation of the soul in multiple lives until Karma is perfected and the soul is freed to live in bliss.

    Jewish Claim – Of resurrection of the righteous dead in the messianic age with the messiah in paradise

    Mormon Claim – 3 Kingdoms of Glory

    Elysium Fields – Where those blessed by the Greek Gods spend eternity.

    Zoroastrian Claim- That the soul leaves the body on the 4th day after death and goes to either heaven or hell.

    Islam Claim – Soul will enter paradise, or hell as a corrective place prior to Paradise, unless the soul commits unforgivable evil then it remains in hell.

    There are many other claims to eternal life with as much validity to eternal life as the New Testament.

    Why do you reject these claims they all have ancient holy books, recorded miracles and all have or had millions or billions of followers?

    Comment by thethyme | August 13, 2008 | Reply

  18. Because none of these demonstrate love.

    But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. [Rom 5:8]

    In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. [1 John 4:10]

    Comment by Russ | August 13, 2008 | Reply

  19. That’s simply not true a Mormon can quote the exact same scripture you can for they believe and use the Holy Bible… they have an additional testament of Jesus Christ The Book of Mormon. Do you reject this testament of Jesus?

    Islam is also a religion that claims love and forgiveness

    “Verily, God loves those who turn unto Him in repentance and He loves those who keep themselves pure” 2:209

    “Say (O’ Our Nabi) If ye do love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins; Verily, Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.” (3:31)

    “Nay, but [God is aware of] those who keep their bond with Him, [59] and are conscious of Him: and, verily, God loves those who are conscious of Him.” 3:76

    Clearly Allah offer loves and forgiveness why do you reject the love and forgiveness of Allah? According to Islam the Qur’an was revealed directly to Mohammed by the Angel Gabriel as God’s final revelation to the world.

    This can go on and on with other religions, Christianity does not have a monopoly on love or forgiveness.

    Comment by thethyme | August 13, 2008 | Reply

  20. Where did Allah demonstrate his love?

    Mormon:

    The One who demonstrated His love for me also warned me:

    For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. [Matt 24:5]

    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. [John 3:16]

    Comment by Russ | August 13, 2008 | Reply

  21. Allah demonstrates his love in forgiveness and mercy or is a blood sacrifice the only way to demonstrate love?

    As for the Mormon Claims

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
    John 10:16

    And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one bshepherd.
    And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be bconverted through their preaching.
    And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.
    But behold, ye have both heard amy voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.
    3 Nephi 15

    Sounds like they have all the claims you can make regarding Jesus and more.

    My point is these are no less valid claims to who God is, eternal life or anything… We can play ping pong with scripture from all religions all day, but none of them can provide any external validity its all built on their own holy texts which all claim to be sole truth. So while you bet on Jesus Billions of other bet on some one else or choose not to worry about it at all.

    Comment by thethyme | August 13, 2008 | Reply

  22. So what have you proven? Have you proven that Jesus did not rise from the dead?

    Comment by Russ | August 13, 2008 | Reply

  23. Is there any independant proof that he did? Will you be able to site a reference for it other than a testament to it written by devoted followers decades after his death?

    What I have proven is that no religion can actually make any independant claims to their validity,and many make similar mutually exclusive claims.

    Comment by thethyme | August 13, 2008 | Reply

  24. Can evolution make any independant claims to its validity? Evolution has never had even one eye witness to its validity.

    Comment by Russ | August 13, 2008 | Reply

  25. Well if you want to change topics and discuss the science of evolutionary biology as it is taught at Universities world wide we certainly can. There is a robust amount of evidence in favor of theory of evolution.

    Most recently the published study of Richard Lenski and his work e-coli bacteria. In which he was able to see the evolution of new traits in the bacteria strains. This is evolution witnessed in a lab!

    Then there is the fossil record there are over 250,000 fossilized species and there are the numerous transitional fossils for example lets take the Horse. The following are shown to be evolutionary ancestors of the modern Horse(Equus)

    Hyrancotherium
    Orohippus
    Mesohippus
    Miohippus
    Kalobatippus
    Parahippus
    Merychippus
    Hipparion
    Pliohippus
    Dinohippus
    Plesippus

    And this just the Horse, where we have found direct common ancestors for so far… as I said the fossil record contains over 250,000 species so far.

    Molecular Biology and genetics –
    All known organism are based on the same fundamental biochemical organization (DNA) that also shows common descent through protein coding and similarity of genetic structure.

    This only begins to scratch the surface of the scientific evidence here. Other topics we could discuss in regard to evolution are

    Molecular Variance Patterns
    Anti-biotic resistance
    Pesticide resistance
    Comparative Physiology
    Homologous Structures

    As I said this is just the beginning of the evidence… you can do plenty of reading and learning about evolution here are a couple of places to start

    National Academy of Science

    UC Berkley

    If you read through these sites and do some work you will soon learn not only is there evidence for evolution there is a lot of it, and it comes from multiple different sources and fields of science. It is robust in its predictive power and unlike any religion; science in general and evolution is no exception is adaptive when presented with new data supported evidence .

    Comment by thethyme | August 13, 2008 | Reply

  26. So after the coli bacteria mutated, was it still a bacteria or was it now a monkey?

    Comment by Russ | August 13, 2008 | Reply

  27. Nope, but it was different than it was before now able to digest a food it was not able to before, this is evolution. The experiment showed the change in populations of ecoli over time.

    You can shift the goal post around as much as you like as to what you would personally accept as evolution, you can even attempt to create the false dichotomy between micro and macro evolution, but this does not change the point, the amount of evidence in favor of evolution having occurred and continuing to occur is abundant.

    Your question was can I provide independent claims of evolution validity; I have provided multiple. This cannot be said for the resurrection of Jesus.

    Comment by thethyme | August 13, 2008 | Reply


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